secondary not closing properly

[Roo]

Hi,

on my used 92 V4, thats been sitting neglected for years.... the secondary is not closing back up...now of course it sounds like its a mess of corrosion or something interfering with it, but its not.

It seems to happen only after riding it for awhile,,like it gets hot.

I took it apart, cleaned out the inside...the helix is not wore..theres some little "buttons" in there that are ok looking...the spring is not broken... I smoothed up the spots where it slides on... rubbed some synthetic white grease on everything that has a wear surface... and took it for a ride today.

It works fine for awhile, but then begins to hang open...sorta like it fails to downshift??

today when trying to get home, I had to get out of where I was, and I actually burned through the inner sheave of the primary trying to get home. I woulda expected the belt to self destruct long before that ever happened... these belts (its a Gates) are unreal.

Im no stranger to mechanics, but Im pretty snowmobile stupid.

Can someone tell me what Im doing wrong?

thanks,
Roo

 

[Mad Powersports]

If there is no belt on is it still stuck wide open? Broken spring? Does the inner sheave spin independently (a bit) from the outter sheave?

Is the primary opening all the way, not stuck partially closed?

I personally don't lube anything inside a secondary, but if I do I use dry graphite.

 

[Roo]

yes, the primary is opening right up, however when it did open the few times I ran it up on a stand with the guard off, it did seem to open up to a point, and then snap back to fully open , still before the engine returned to idle rpms though???

The belt I used was a Gates Xtreme from Dennis Kirk, ordered by application, it seems to work fine when the problem isnt occurring.

Perhaps I didnt wind up the clutch enough... I will check my service manual and double check my work. Shame I was stupid enough to destroy my primary in the process.

I was sure I assembled it back to the way it was when I disassembled it, but, the reason I had it apart in the first place was because it was acting up.

Do the springs get weak?

and I hear you on the lube, it tends to just hold dirt and other contaminates...but I had to try something.

thanks for you help and any additional input.

 

[Ken]

Can you post any pictures of your secondary?

I have a couple of questions for you.
What colour are the buttons (ramp shoes)?
Is the helix nickle plated.
What is the colour code on the secondary spring?
What colour are the large and small secondary bushings?
How wide is the smaller diameter secondary bushing?

There were a bunch of factory updates done to the 92 secondary, that's the reason for the questions. Yamaha had a lot of problems with the clutching, especially on the 92. The best of the 750 era secondaries is the 94, it has teflon bushings in it. You could probably find a 94 secondary for a reasonable price.

 

[Mad Powersports]

yes, the primary is opening right up, however when it did open the few times I ran it up on a stand with the guard off, it did seem to open up to a point, and then snap back to fully open , still before the engine returned to idle rpms though???

Without knowing the rpm it snaps open at I'm assuming that is when the spring overcomes the centrifugal force of the flyweights and snaps open. I should be the same rpm as engagement rpm.

Perhaps I didnt wind up the clutch enough... I will check my service manual and double check my work. Shame I was stupid enough to destroy my primary in the process.

That is a step you can not overlook. The purpose of the driven clutch is to sense a load and keep the proper tension on the drive belt. Because the driven clutch can sense a load, the clutch must analyze how much torque it is receiving from the engine and compare it to the resistance it receives from the track. At that point it shifts to the highest possible ratio to obtain power and torque. When the load or resistance changes, the driven clutch will override the drive clutch and will shift up or down to maintain a constant RPM and deliver peek power out put. Both the drive and driven clutches work as a team and are dependent on each other. A change in one clutch will affect how the other clutch responds. One of the most important clutch tuning components is the driven clutch spring. The driven spring applies side pressure to the drive belt in conjunction with the driven helix. The driven spring is a key component to influence efficiency in the driven clutch. A lack of spring tension will allow the belt to slip in the driven clutch causing and extreme amount of heat. Heat is friction, an enemy to performance. Too much spring tension will cause a loss of efficiency and slow down acceleration. The goal is to have the correct spring tension in conjunction with the correct helix angle for the type of riding conditions ( ie. load or resistance on the track). Remember that a higher tension spring is required when a larger degree helix is installed. Higher degree helixes produce less side belt pressure because spring pressure is applied perpendicular to the sheaves rather than parallel to the driven clutch sheave.

Do the springs get weak?

Absolutely!! They get weak, they break, they can bind, all sorts of funky stuff. Mind you I am not a clutching guru but understanding the basics of how they work is a tremendous help in diagnosing problems. Check the Totally Yamaha board as I think there is a good article there on clutching.

Ron

 

[Roo]

Ken and Madpowersports:

Thanks for the explanation of how it works.. Ive never really heard a detailed description before... I had trouble with a secondary on my SRV many years ago, and everyone I asked for help couldnt explain it. Either they didnt know, it was a closely guarded secret, or it was voodoo baby!????

anyway, Im going to disassemble it tomorrow and see if I can get some pics and maybe I can properly address the questions you guys have asked in order to help me.

so stay tuned, I'll have some more info since you guys are willing to help out. I bought a primary off Ebad, and a secondary from the classifieds here (thanks Mad!), but I still need to get to the bottom of this.

once again, thanks guys!
Roo

 

[Roo]

I hoped to get things apart today, but when my primary came apart, the belt jumped to the inside, and to get the secondary off, Id have to cut the belt, or remove the primary.


So, ,naturally Id remove the primary. I thought the clutch tool I had from my old 540 VMax Comet days would work, but Im sure most of you know it doesnt.

Im ordering the proper tool tonight.

I could cut the belt off, but even after burning through the primary, theres not a mark on it. At the very least its a good spare.

Since I dont have the replacement parts yet, I'll have to wait a bit more to get the secondary apart. So, I'll get back to you guys later rather than sooner.

Once again, I have to thank you folks for the help and this site. Thanks!

Roo

 

[mjdevries]

I hoped to get things apart today, but when my primary came apart, the belt jumped to the inside, and to get the secondary off, Id have to cut the belt, or remove the primary.

This sounds pretty bizzare! Pictures!!

So, ,naturally Id remove the primary. I thought the clutch tool I had from my old 540 VMax Comet days would work, but Im sure most of you know it doesnt.

Im ordering the proper tool tonight.

Since you mentioned Dennis Kirk I thought I would put my 2 cents in. I have a 1995 VMAX-4.

I ordered this Piece of Sh!t and it bent.... This is the only one listed for the 1992 VMAX-4. But it should still work if I would have used the method I described below.
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=28148

Then I ordered the more $$ one.
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?productId=p28695
This one did not bottom out in the shaft, instead it bottomed out on the end of the threads. The taper needed to be machined about 1/4 inch further down the shank of the puller. I was able to fix the crushed threads, but it pissed me off.

I ended up packing the inside of the clutch with grease and then used the puller as is. It worked great that way and it popped before it even contacted the end of the shaft. If you have a grease gun, it is really easy to filled the center with grease. I filled it most of the way and then pushed the puller in. You want enough grease so that you have to push on the puller and turn it to get the thing started into the threads. Initially I was afraid that the grease would splatter all over, but it doesn't. I then clean the center of the clutch out with WD-40 and then follow that up with soap and water.

Best Regards and good luck,
Mike

 

[Roo]

Ok, I ordered the cheap one and will use it per your instructions. I know in my past expierences sometimes these things can be a bear to get off.

I grabbed some pics yesterday so you can see the damage to the primary and how the belt jumped over to the inside of the remaining 2/3rds of the inner sheave.

 

[Roo]

Ok guys, Im sorry to keep yakking up a storm. I assure you in the real world Im not this big of a mouthpiece!

I had some time between jobs today, and looked at my sled again. I was able to remove the secondary after all, I just had to try harder. Anyway, I got it apart, I dont think theres anything wrong with it, I bet I didnt wind it correctly.

The helix is nickle plated, says 38*, and the number I think makes it a 93? (Its like 8ax or something like that, you'll be able to see in the pics) The spring was set to B-4, however my manual says it should be A-3. The spring is black, and measures 4.25" free length.

The helix has some pitting and scarring from some of the nickle coming off, but nothing that interferes with it playing nicely with the sleeve/bushing.

The teflon bushings are white, and appear to be in good shape.

With the helix installed in the bushing an .008" blade feeler gage is a tight fit and required a good tug to get it out, so that seems reasonable to me??

There is an "A" stamped on the ramps side of the Helix almost like it should correspond with something, but I dont know.

There are 2 shims/spacers between both halves althought the manual only shows one in the exploded view, however if both shims arent in there it seems that both sheaves rub on eachother. With both in place they rotate quite nicely independently.

I cleaned off all the white grease, and reassembled in the A-3 position. I turned the one sheave CCW, approx 33* like I believe the manual tells me to do, and locked it all together. Back on the machine, If I were to guess... it takes about 10-15 lbs of "pull" to twist the sheave, and it springs back with authority.

Does that make sense? comments? am I a moron? I talk to much? :beathead:

please and thanks for the continued input guys!

 

[Mad Powersports]

I grabbed some pics yesterday so you can see the damage to the primary and how the belt jumped

Yikes.. :3speechle

BTW that looks exactly like my Snappy screwdriver laying there !

 

[3ft]

I have a 93/94 seondary...not sure of which year...the teflon bushing need to be replaced. I have a brand new stock helix for it and it all sitting on the shelf.....I would be willing to part with it for very little....know that you would need to replace those bushings in it....If that is something you mite like to do let me know...I will be back and check in on Friday.

As for the helix the 92 and 93 are slightly different and do not interchange....the shims in the secondary are just to adapt to belt wear. I had issues with my 92 as well...thats why I got the 93/94...I have never used it as i went to all 800 drive train. Good luck, I'm sure some of the fellas here will help you sort out the problems with your clutch...Mine is avalible if needed.

 

[mjdevries]

Does that make sense? comments? am I a moron? I talk to much? :beathead:

please and thanks for the continued input guys!

Make Sense? I don't know... I read a lot of these things so I can learn from others mistakes! Moron? No, just learning by your own mistakes!

Did the belt cut into the other sheave as well?

Good luck with popping the clutch.

 

[Roo]

Hi again, and happy new year!

Mad, yes theres nothing like a Snap On #3 Phillips! Their #2 bits (like for a ratcheting screwdriver) with the little serrations on them are the best ever! Ive spent a few bucks over the years.

3ft, thanks for the offer for the clutch. I did commit to buy one and sent away the cash to another member so I'll stick to that, however yours may be a good idea also for the future. I sent you a PM.

mjdevries, oddly enough the belt had no effect on the outer/moveable sheave. I guess the greater mass of material was able to dissipate the heat better than the thinner inner sheave. All I can do now is wait for parts and pieces in the mail.

As for my secondary clutch, nobody has any critiques??? Did I assemble it correctly? does it look ok?

I read the TSBs on the 92 clutch on the tech pages, I think what I have has that wider bushing, but the helix is 8AX... does that not make it a 93? The sheaves say 89A on them though. What about spring and spring settings/positions?

can someone provide some more info?

thanks!
Roo

 

[Ken]

Your clutch appears to be a 92 with a teflon bushing kit. Going with a stock 92 secondary would be a step backwards because they have duralon bushings.

If your secondary is a 92 with a teflon bushing kit then the correct secondary spring will have a yellow colour code stripe on it. You could also get away with a 93 pink/white (colour code) spring. The stock 92 red (colour code) spring would be too stiff. The correct preload would be B3 43 degrees or C3 53 degrees.

If your helix is an 8AX 38 with an "A" stamped between the ramps then it is a 42/37 (92 factory update) multi angle helix. Check and confirm if there is a die stamp between the ramps and let me know what's there. You can polish up the outside of the helix with chrome polish but I would replace it.

I believe that there should only be one spacer (thin washer) between the sheave and helix. It was added by Yamaha due to an angle change to the face of the sheaves, it prevents the sheaves from opening to far. If you can post a picture I can tell you forsure. There is also a single thicker washer that goes between the sheaves.

 

[Roo]

Your clutch appears to be a 92 with a teflon bushing kit. Going with a stock 92 secondary would be a step backwards because they have duralon bushings.

Ok, thats good. Did many 92's survive without the updated bushings?

If your secondary is a 92 with a teflon bushing kit then the correct secondary spring will have a yellow colour code stripe on it. You could also get away with a 93 pink/white (colour code) spring. The stock 92 red (colour code) spring would be too stiff. The correct preload would be B3 43 degrees or C3 53 degrees.

The spring that was in there is all black with no markings. I guess that kinda leaves me on my own there. All I can do it try it at the A3 setting? I am a heavy rider. (285lbs)

If your helix is an 8AX 38 with an "A" stamped between the ramps then it is a 42/37 (92 factory update) multi angle helix. Check and confirm if there is a die stamp between the ramps and let me know what's there. You can polish up the outside of the helix with chrome polish but I would replace it.

If you look at the pic sled 001, you can see the A stamped into the helix. Does it look like the updated multi angle unit? It does have 8AX 38 cast into it. Are these available new from the dealer? and what would I ask for?

I believe that there should only be one spacer (thin washer) between the sheave and helix. It was added by Yamaha due to an angle change to the face of the sheaves, it prevents the sheaves from opening to far. If you can post a picture I can tell you forsure. There is also a single thicker washer that goes between the sheaves.

Ive already forgot if theres one between the sheave and helix. The thicker washer between is where there was an additional washer, about .040" thick. Without that washer the two sheaves seem to rub face to face.

So would A3 upshift sooner or later than C4?? how does this apply so I can set it up? I just do general riding.

thanks for the help and your time!
Roo.

 

[Ken]

92's came from the factory with Vespel bushings, kinda like black plastic. Yamaha changed the bushings under warranty to Duralon, a dark redish fiber like material. In 94 Yamaha started using Teflon and then offered a upgrade kit as an option. The Duralon works but the teflon is better.

The helix would be available from the dealer, ask for a 42/37 for a 1992. Check on a price because they are probably expensive in Canada.....you can probably find a good used one.

Start with B3 on your secondary and see how it works, C3 will give you faster backshift. I don't know what C4 is in degrees.

You need to tune for a shift rpm around 8250

 

[Roo]

the 8250 is what I will be searching for. I will set it to B3, and try it out.

My Yamaha stealership scares me, but I'll check out the price and availabilty of that helix.

Does the way I put it together sound correct? Like how its wound? You put the spring in the required holes, and twist the sheave ccw until the helix will go down far enough to get the snap ring on?

thanks again for your continued assistance.

 

[Ken]

The way you are preloading your secondary sounds correct. When I get a chance I will look and see if I have an extra good 42/37, but I think I sold it.

Post a wanted add for a 42/37 or a 43/37, the 43/37 is a Hauck with a more aggressive cut. You just need to be sure that it's a 92 helix and not a 93. The 93 helix's won't fit on the 92 spline. You could also post a wanted add looking for a complete 94 secondary. I have a teflon upgraded 92 and a teflon 94 secondary, I'll give some thought to selling one of them. I've been considering changing over to a Cat Roller Clutch................for a long time.

You are quite welcome for the assistance, the info about these clutches has taken years to piece together.

 

[mjdevries]

Sometimes just printing out the parts diagram can be helpful.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/parts/home.aspx

My guess is that you had the secondary not preloaded correctly, so whe you tried to take off it was basically already shifted into High gear and the belt was slipping like crazy on the primary. Probably did heat up the fixed sheave more, as you assumed due to the smaller mass of the fixed sheave.

Here is the Hauck Helix's.
http://www.hauckpowersportsinc.com/...oductsypz-nickelplated-secondary-helixes.aspx


I've never had my secondary apart yet, but I do love these postings where the knowledgeable members give good feedback.